I know that is bs because I haven’t been there in days and I probably added 100 visits a day to their stats. So they’re at least a couple hundred shy.

The article mentions 55.31 million daily visits (average). You decreased their stats by 0.00018%. Even if all new active lemmy users had your level of activity, the other site would still return to normal. There are just so many other users.

I know that I am not back. And I won’t be back, and I think a lot of people are staying away as well. That the traffic is now normal seems a bit sketchy.

I’m afraid that’s just bubble bias. Most people just don’t care or haven’t found a viable alternative yet. These +43k active users on Lemmy are huge for Lemmy, but not even a scratch for the other site.

After the initial exodus at the start of this month, you could see more and more comments demanding returning to business as usual.

https://joinfediverse.wiki/What_is_Lemmy%3F

Ok, but you can only do that if they already joined the fediverse. I replied to “the powers that be must never be allowed to join the fediverse”. It’s also questionable if everyone will block them.

The article is not about single persons who might be trolls or whatever to qualify as a “bad guy”. But about megacorporations like Meta.

Yes, sorry for being unclear. I meant the bad ‘guy’ Meta. Maybe continuing with ‘entity’ would have been better:

we can be sure some entities will join

ensure only good entities enter

The best way to deal with them is-in my opinion-to not cooperate and defederate them as soon as they start to enter.

I tend to agree. Still quite new to the topic.

I’m worried this will not be enough in the long run.

Imagine Meta provides more original content, a higher user base, more engagement, more activity. That alone would make it interesting for many other users, further increasing their relative attractivity.

Additionally, they could invest in the codebase, and implement some of the community’s dream features, some nice mod tools, search engine discoverability and whatnot. On a fork which lives on their instances, of course. Services which work if you federate with them.

They have the resources to rase the stakes higher and higher. The incentives are objective, real, advantages for users, communitites, mods and admins. Isn’t it only a question of time / stake height until significant parts of the fediverse choose to cooperate for various reasons?

We should be honest and ensure people join the Fediverse because they share some of the values behind it.

How could that be done? Anyone with the resources can host an instance, and there are plenty of instances with a low entry bar.

If the fediverse grows enough, we can be sure some entities will join not because they share our values, but because they see our value.

I don’t see how we could prevent that or ensure only good guys enter. The fediverse is open by design.

the powers that be must never be allowed to join the fediverse

How are they not allowed? How is it checked, how prevented?

As I see it, they can freely use the code, freely set up instances, freely create user accounts on their own or other instances, with ‘independent’ users, employees or bots.

The only thing stopping them is the current fediverse’s insignificance. We’re just not tasty enough, yet. But if we become, how could we disallow them from joining?

Let them join…and be ignored.

I see the threat in the sheer developing power of these giants, making all the shiny tools people were wanting, making their service too attractive to be ignored.

I disagree on moderation, I don’t think any #Fediverse admin would trust #Meta enough to use their software for moderation.

I found the example interesting in principle. We can think of varieties besides moderation. What other features are highly requested and sought after?

What about an easy way to find, join, and engage with even niche communities? Comm lookup and joining is wonky, especially when coming from small instances. Another related feature is user-side grouping of similar comms into one multi-community. Or being able to easily move between instances, relocate your account. Better indexing for web searches.

The list of possible features, ranging from QoL to Enablers, is endless. Big companies with coding experience can easily dominate the scene, and make it hard to not join them or use their service. Their mere presence could spell dependence.

Like I heard we’re using lemmy 0.18 now. Would you voluntarily still use an older version, like 0.9, when you can just as well use 0.18?

If they have any ability to post to the Fediverse or to track things they’ll do it all over again.

They have that ability, and always will have. They can create as many accounts as they like on as many instances as they like, or run as many instances as they like themselves, use incentivized individuals, or employees, or bots, or any combination of all of the above. No one can stop them, maybe even no one can spot them.

The only thing which is holding them back right now is lemmy/kbin still being too insignificant. If the network continues to grow, more and more big corps will see it as a market and an opportunity, and they will have plenty of ways to interact with it.

if Google or Meta wants to join they should to us not us to them so if they break federation we should not care and continue implement our stuff

As I understood the article, the danger is that large actors like these are too important too ignore. Too many users, too much content to neglect. So while in theory you are obviously right, in reality there will be a temptation to cater to their needs, because it seems so worthwhile.

Or that, yes. Technically you don’t need another account for another server.

For example, this link is relative to your home instance. But if I just paste the full link: https://discuss.tchncs.de/c/lemmytips it probably shows the page logged out.

Related GitHub issues: #3259, #3261

Thanks! If lemmy wants to grow (and I do want that), it better listens to people who share their struggle.

It is irrelevant wether we find that struggle justified, wether we deem him worthy of joining, wether his assessment of the situation is correct. Even an ill informed rejection can help us improve.

Most users who face similar problems will just go away, never come back and not share anything to learn from. This person shares their point of view, and that’s a great resource to improve the user experience right from the welcome page.

This perspective is especially valuable, since once you managed to get through that process and familiarized yourself with the system, your view has changed. It can be hard to assume an uninformed perspective again. But we need to make lemmy accessible especially for this audience, because they are the only ones who can make it grow by joining.

So, what did we get?

1. “The homepage is literally some bs about servers.”
2. “Where are all the discussions happening?”
3. “This federated stuff is all nice and cool technically but what’s the product?”
4. He’s looking for “Discussions. Alternatives for subreddits.”
5. “How do I search for Formula1 and Tennis?”
6. “I created an account and it asks me to login again”
7. “A link from search takes me to another server and asks me to login again”
8. “If a human needs to explain how to use a platform […]”

We’ll come back to this later.

Let’s compare the experience on https://www.reddit.com/ and https://join-lemmy.org/ from the point of view of an unfamiliar user who might want to create an account.

On reddit, without being logged in:

• biggest part of the screen in the middle is occupied by actual posts
• user can scroll for more content and already gets a feeling how the regular experience might be within the first seconds, even before creating an account. Comment section is accessible, posts can even be shared without being logged in.
• top part of the feed is four exemplary posts which draw further attention to actual content
• left panel is categorized subs, which gives an impression what kind of content can be expected, and acts as a search function for those who cannot put into words what they are looking for
• right panel is almost the same, categorized subreddits. It’s hard to miss!
• top panel is a huge search box which can be used without leaving/changing the site
• bottom left and top right: Two big, bright orange buttons which start registration.

In short, reddit is filled with what most users come for, right from the start. It takes their wish so serious that there are many ways to check out the core content (center feed, four exemplary posts) or categories (left and right) or search (top, left, right).

This redundancy with slight variations can address different people who are used to different things. A person coming from an image-centered platform like instagram might go for the four exemplary posts which look like image thumbnails, while a person coming from a text-based forum will intuitively go for the center feed. Both ways directly lead to and familiarize with the core content without the need to log in.

The registration process is simple, the buttons are very visible and again redundant in opposing corners of the screen. Everything happens on one page which does not need to explain anything in text, because it is intuitively accessible.

On join-lemmy:

• biggest part of the screen is occupied by a rather technical explanation what lemmy is
• there is a hint of actual content in the background, but it is blurred out and inaccessible
• when I scroll to move the explanation away, I get more technial explanations which seems to address server admins, not users. A regular user might feel unwelcomed at this point. “Is this the right thing for me?”
• Two big buttons at the top: “Join a server” and “Run a server”.
• No way to see how content is displayed, how it feels to interact with content.
• No way to search for content or communities. Does lemmy even have what I am seeking?
• When clicking on “Join a Server”, a second lengthy, complicated page opens.
• The user is greeted with more explanation, including three links to more explanations.
• There is also a link to https://browse.feddit.de/. This is the first time users can check what content is available. It’s a bulky view with roughly 2.4 hits per page. The biggest link in each hit opens an explanation box. The smaller link actually leads to content. This is the fastest way for new users from the welcome page to an experience similar to when they simply open reddit.com.
• Now users have to decide and choose a server and click “Join”
• No registration mask, instead they are redirected to the instance’s main page.
• On this third page of their journey, users have to find the Login/Signup buttons again (which look like other buttons and are less visible than other buttons), and click one to start registration.

Let’s revisit what your friend said:

1. “The homepage is literally some bs about servers.”

That is correct. Most of the information on https://join-lemmy.org/ seems to be geared towards people who are interested in running a server. This is not what people expect when they are looking for something like reddit as a user. This will most certainly scare some people away, or cause confusion.

Solution: Hide the tech talk. Address the regular crowd. People who want to run a server can manage to find it somewhere “hidden”. People who want to share cat pics cannot.

2. “Where are all the discussions happening?”

He shares his interest, and expresses feeling helpless in finding it. Until they discover a specific link on page 2 (and invest a couple more clicks), users cannot see what’s going on inside lemmy, or wether there is even anything going on. Things which some newcomers honestly won’t know at this point.

Solution: Bring our star, the content, center stage. This is what people come for. Don’t make them search for it, we don’t have to hide it.

3. “This federated stuff is all nice and cool technically but what’s the product?”
4. He’s looking for “Discussions. Alternatives for subreddits.”
5. “How do I search for Formula1 and Tennis?”

Expressed frustration: “This is not what I was looking for. Where is what I was looking for?” All the technical explanation cannot convey what a direct content presentation conveys in a few seconds. How does lemmy look like, what does it feel like, how can I use it, what people and topics are there?

6. “I created an account and it asks me to login again”

He seemed to expect to be logged in after registration. Yeah, why not? Some sites do this, others do not. I also find it mildly annoying to log in after registration, to repeat myself.

7. “A link from search takes me to another server and asks me to login again”

I spent 3 days learning lemmy and am still struggling with this. This will trip over so many users. https://midwest.social/c/cats will throw you out, but /c/cats@midwest.social hidden in a link works fine. Would be nice if lemmy could automatically do this for me when clicking on a link to another instance while being logged in.

8. “If a human needs to explain how to use a platform […]”

Absolutely right, that’s a UX design smell. Your friend was lucky to have you to ask. Most users will be alone on their journey. A good portion will turn around when they find server talk where they expected a reddit scrolling substitute.

The process of choosing an instance should be simplified, be hidden from users. Advanced users can still have that freedom.

Sorry if I was harsh in my words at some points. It’s not because I despise lemmy, but because I love it and want to stay here. But I also loved to have so much people and content around me on reddit, to be part of the one page people turn to when they are unhappy with Google results. I want lemmy to shine, and to grow. To achieve this goal, it is imperative to review how we approach new users, because there is no other way for us to grow but to win them. Let’s help them help us. Make joining easy and fun.